Pretend I'm an alien and......

[stationing]

I hear you. And I respect what you've been able to do for yourself. And I do think working hard is a fun aspect of being human - whether it's working hard at a job, as a parent or friend, or even as an unpaid political organizer.

I still have the sense that you're not totally hearing my point. That person flipping burgers for minimum wage is not making 30k, but rather much, much less. Supporting a family (rent, health insurance, NES bill, food etc) on a burger-flipping wage is just about impossible. When a company is highly profitable, and boasts a multimillionaire executive team but has a workforce (without which the company would have nothing) that can't afford to see the doctor, that has to wait in line for a food box so as not to starve, that works 40, 50, or 60 hours a week but still can't make ends mean - that's just crazy. It doesn't make sense. To me, it's just irrational and unethical. Again, sometimes, all too often in fact, people have to organize and fight for what is right, because people with the power to make things right so often don't. And, by the way, to fight that kind of fight takes the kind of hard work that you value so much.

By the way, a lot of people start out rich. GW for example was born into a long line of wealth, as are many folks. Many people with money did absolutely nothing to earn it, save the blind luck of being born in the right place at the right time. No hard work there.

Also, one other issue at hand - I feel that humanity has an obligation to care for those who are not capable of hard work. That's why we have things like disability insurance, social security insurance, medicare etc. To me, it's just unethical to leave those folks out in the cold - which we sometimes do quite literally.

I love your sense of hard work. I hope that at some point you chose to apply some of that energy to helping/organizing/caring about those who unlike you, have not been able to stabilize in the middle class.

[psychojediboy]

Wow, you're right. We should all just give up and go home and accept the status quo. I suspected it before but now I'm convinced that you're a plant and a troll. The way you spout those Republican propaganda talking points in long reasonable sounding posts is clever, but not nearly clever enough.

[Proteus]

I hear you was well. I do feel like the value of hard work has been lost a bit on the younger generation though. Not that it is entirely their fault. We do live in a world where instant gratification is easily achievable in almost every manner. Hard work simply does fall victim to convenience.

And I agree, we do seem to have kinda gone off the deep end. The schism between rich and poor has reached an epic proportion. The difference between the CEO and the burger flipper is epic. But it's also a situation we have to be very careful about solving. We are so worried about what's fair...Do you cut the salary of the CEO who started out as a fry cook and worked hard to get where he is?? That hardly seems fair. But at the same time, do you raise minimum wage by 4 to 5 dollars and hour and risk bankrupting some company that are already financially shaky there by causing all of it's stockholders to lose money?? Everything we do effects everybody in the economy. I guess thats why I have trouble with the particular form of some of these protest i see that just seem to be a large group of 20 somethings yelling "FIX IT" at the top of their lungs. Pointing out a problem does little to fix it.

And you are correct, I had not been thinking about inherited wealth when I made my previous comment. But again, I can't fault those people for being born into their situations. It's their money and they can do what they want with it, even though they didn't earn it per say.

And we definitely have an obligation to take care of those who are incapable of hard work. But I also think we need to do a MUCH better job of regulating and policing that group. I'm all for social security, disability insurance, etc etc. We help those who can't help themselves, but we must be vigilant in where we draw the line on that. For example, if we had a unified health plan, is it fair for Tennesseans to pay more because we are the second highest obese state? Even though I watch what I eat and take good care of myself while my neighbor eats big macs 3 meals a day??

It's not that I don't the desire to help those less fortunate than me. But I don't think hanging out in centennial park on a sunny saturday is gonna do the trick. I'd rather spend a day with the good folks at Hands On Nashville.

PS You're making alot of good points for an argument you weren't gonna get in....;-)

---------- Post added at 11:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 PM ----------

Wow, you're right. We should all just give up and go home and accept the status quo. I suspected it before but now I'm convinced that you're a plant and a troll. The way you spout those Republican propaganda talking points in long reasonable sounding posts is clever, but not nearly clever enough.

Haha, That may be the first time in my life I have ever been called a Republican. My girlfriend will get a good laugh out of that later. I'm about as far outside of that camp as I can get. I don't claim any party affiliation. I tend to agree with who ever makes the most rational sense. I guess you could call me a Logician??

Thanks for the laugh though :-)

[FruitJelly]

I would like to refer everyone to my post in the War Room.

http://occupynashville.org/forums/showthread.php?101-Wall-Street-Protests-and-the-Economics-of-Ignorance

PS:  Congratulations to Proteus for playing the game correctly and within the law.  I'm sure you never stepped on anyone to gain the wealth you have today.

Regardless.  Please review my Thread and take into consideration the information I have provided.. I would hate to see everyone of these arguments on the battlefield as it were.    It would just spew mass amounts of ignorance.  And there is nothing I hate more than Ignorance at a Protest.  Protesting is the LAST response after you have researched VAST amounts of information.

Good day.    Now.. Let's get this thread back on topic as it has derailed significantly:

What is the problem?

There would be no problem to being an Alien.  It would just mean that you are from outside the united states and have followed the proper procedures to becoming legal.

and

What is the solution?

Solution to what?  Preventing Aliens from living in the US?  Or Preventing Illegal Aliens from living in the US?  

[gaypunk]

One of the biggest problems that we face is that capitalism is treated as more of a religion in our country than it is an economic system. This is understandable as if you go back to the beginnings of capitalism it was described by Adam Smith, author of "The Wealth of Nations" as being guided by an all powerful, always correct, "invisible hand of the market". This sounds awfully similar to a deity to me. This religious approach to an economic system has led us to a point where other religions have incorporated capitalism into their dogma. I am a Christian myself but I find it impossible to defend capitalism with the teachings of Jesus Christ while others belonging to my faith see capitalism as part of God's plan. This religious zeal for an economic system means that we have elevated the financially successful to the point of sainthood in our society and, since the popularizing of supply side economics and the Chicago School of economics, we have allowed our government to also fall in line with the dogma of top down economics.
The problem is that capitalism does not function in a top down kind of way, it always functions in a bottom up manner. Anyone who is wealthy in the US owes their wealth to the poor and middle class. This is not to say that members of the upper economic classes have not worked hard but the wealth they have obtained would have been unobtainable without the labor and spending of the poor and middle class. Our current jobs crises does not stem from a supply problem, but instead from a demand problem. Yet many in Washington keep proposing tax cuts for the wealthy and a reduction in regulations on businesses insisting that these actions will cause an increase in hiring. If I owned a business (actually I do) and found myself saving considerable amounts of money via tax cuts and reduced regulations would I put that money into hiring in an economy where there is little demand for my goods or services or would I hold onto it to help me get through this downturn and allow my business to survive? Obviously tax cuts and eliminating regulations is not going to fix our economic problems.
Many keep saying that the government can not create jobs, how can this be true when the Federal Government is one of the largest employers in the US? How can this be true when FDR's job creation programs like the CCC and WPA created over 8 million jobs during the Great Depression? Obviously the government can create jobs and in our current situation the government is probably the only source for jobs that might get enough people back to work to resolve our demand problems so it is worth it for the private sector to start hiring again. But our nation has been convinced over the past few decades (and both major parties are guilty of this) that the government is incapable of doing anything right and that the private sector has to save us because the private sector is the only option we have for salvation.
Look, in all honesty we are lucky to have a strong private sector in this country and I want the private sector to succeed because that *can* benefit us all. The problem is that we have rigged the system to give almost all the benefits of a strong private sector to the people at the top of the private sector because this fits into their short term goals. They don't even realize that in the long term they are hurting themselves. A dwindling middle class and a stagnate lower class destroy demand and make it harder for the people at the top to make the money they so desperately want. It isn't taxes that hurt the wealthy, from 1945 to 1963 our nation enjoyed its longest period of sustained economic growth and people in the top income tax bracket during this same period paid between 77% and 93% tax rates. Obviously taxation is not the economy killer it is made out to be. If we want to solve this problem we have to realize the value of EVERYONE in our system as they all add to it. You want to help the rich? Then make things better for the poor and middle class. This is supported by tremendous amounts of historical evidence and to deny it is to ignore simple facts. Sadly we seem to like ignoring facts in the US as facts aren't as much fun as conspiracy theories.

[Eliz77]

One of the biggest problems that we face is that capitalism is treated as more of a religion in our country than it is an economic system. This is understandable as if you go back to the beginnings of capitalism it was described by Adam Smith, author of "The Wealth of Nations" as being guided by an all powerful, always correct, "invisible hand of the market". This sounds awfully similar to a deity to me. This religious approach to an economic system has led us to a point where other religions have incorporated capitalism into their dogma. I am a Christian myself but I find it impossible to defend capitalism with the teachings of Jesus Christ while others belonging to my faith see capitalism as part of God's plan. This religious zeal for an economic system means that we have elevated the financially successful to the point of sainthood in our society and, since the popularizing of supply side economics and the Chicago School of economics, we have allowed our government to also fall in line with the dogma of top down economics.
The problem is that capitalism does not function in a top down kind of way, it always functions in a bottom up manner. Anyone who is wealthy in the US owes their wealth to the poor and middle class. This is not to say that members of the upper economic classes have not worked hard but the wealth they have obtained would have been unobtainable without the labor and spending of the poor and middle class. Our current jobs crises does not stem from a supply problem, but instead from a demand problem. Yet many in Washington keep proposing tax cuts for the wealthy and a reduction in regulations on businesses insisting that these actions will cause an increase in hiring. If I owned a business (actually I do) and found myself saving considerable amounts of money via tax cuts and reduced regulations would I put that money into hiring in an economy where there is little demand for my goods or services or would I hold onto it to help me get through this downturn and allow my business to survive? Obviously tax cuts and eliminating regulations is not going to fix our economic problems.
Many keep saying that the government can not create jobs, how can this be true when the Federal Government is one of the largest employers in the US? How can this be true when FDR's job creation programs like the CCC and WPA created over 8 million jobs during the Great Depression? Obviously the government can create jobs and in our current situation the government is probably the only source for jobs that might get enough people back to work to resolve our demand problems so it is worth it for the private sector to start hiring again. But our nation has been convinced over the past few decades (and both major parties are guilty of this) that the government is incapable of doing anything right and that the private sector has to save us because the private sector is the only option we have for salvation.
Look, in all honesty we are lucky to have a strong private sector in this country and I want the private sector to succeed because that *can* benefit us all. The problem is that we have rigged the system to give almost all the benefits of a strong private sector to the people at the top of the private sector because this fits into their short term goals. They don't even realize that in the long term they are hurting themselves. A dwindling middle class and a stagnate lower class destroy demand and make it harder for the people at the top to make the money they so desperately want. It isn't taxes that hurt the wealthy, from 1945 to 1963 our nation enjoyed its longest period of sustained economic growth and people in the top income tax bracket during this same period paid between 77% and 93% tax rates. Obviously taxation is not the economy killer it is made out to be. If we want to solve this problem we have to realize the value of EVERYONE in our system as they all add to it. You want to help the rich? Then make things better for the poor and middle class. This is supported by tremendous amounts of historical evidence and to deny it is to ignore simple facts. Sadly we seem to like ignoring facts in the US as facts aren't as much fun as conspiracy theories.

Very clear examination of the problem, gaypunk. The religion of capitalism is as oppressive as any kind of "state" religion and systems can get all tangled when people do not have access to information.

Another quick note: We have been brain washed to the point of having no knowledge remaining about the fact that we are the government...or are supposed to be the government. Every Regan clone who insults us by saying that government is bad is consciously working to remove our oversight. We see this in the move to privatize everything from healthcare and education to prisons and the military. Essential life support like water and food is being corporatized away from public oversight. I have great hope for the Occupation movement as I have seen young people who are using critical thinking and compassionate organizing to fulfill our public duty to take back the power of government.

The old example of the frog in the pot that doesn't notice that the fire is warming it slowly to boiling has been my nightmare for some time as I have, ineffectually I have to say, struggled to make us more aware that "People have the power!" And, now, I have hope that we have noticed the heat. I will do all I can to sustain this movement for change. Real change.

[Liz]

Well-stated. Wealth has to continuously ebb and flow like water. If it's all dammed up at the top of the mountain, everything else withers and dies. Then all the mountain has left is a bunch of water, which is worthless to them now that everyone else is gone. Nothing has value if there's no one left to need it.

I have nothing against capitalism in principal, but what we have today has long-since veered from original, and sustainable, capitalistic concepts. Capitalism can only work if it has a conscience and plays fair, and if every individual has the necessary valid information and access to participate. That's LONG gone!

I also have GREAT hope for this movement, and want to do everything I can to support it and help it grow.

[Africa Black]

Explain it to me.

Give me the short, easy to understand version as to these 2 questions...

What is the problem?

and

What is the solution?

And GO!

The problem is unchecked greed and corruption.

The solution is separating corporate financial influence from government akin to the separation of church & state. (This is clearly an oversimplification. American capitalism has turned into a cancer that's infecting the Western world, so there isn't just one, clear solution. Capitalism has infected our gov'ts (on all levels), education, housing, justice, and health care systems just to name some things. It's been made a naughty phrase, but there does need to be "wealth distribution", breaking up of monopolies, and a revamping of our government regulations to promote growth of the middle class, develop the lower class, & foster sustainable growth of the upper class.)

[gaypunk]

I have nothing against capitalism in principal, but what we have today has long-since veered from original, and sustainable, capitalistic concepts. Capitalism can only work if it has a conscience and plays fair, and if every individual has the necessary valid information and access to participate. That's LONG gone!

Liz, you have to understand that the original goals of capitalism are the goals we are operating under today. Capitalism has never been an economic system that tried to promote the general welfare, it has always been a system that sought to use those at the bottom to benefit those at the top. Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" which is widely seen as the first serious book about capitalism was published in 1776, Karl Marx, who railed against capitalism's inequities, published the "Communist Manifesto" in 1848. Capitalism is vastly superior to feudalism, the system it displaced, but sustainability and fairness were never its goals.

What made capitalism different in the relatively recent past of the late 1930's through the 1970's was the horror of the Great Depression when things got bad enough that even the wealthy saw the error of their ways and the country refused to ever let such a terrible thing happen again. Sadly our nation's memory only lasted until the 80's when we started stripping regulations, busting unions, and putting back into place the kinds of policies that allowed the Great Depression to happen in the first place and have allowed us to get into the situation we are in now. We have forgotten that the policies the corporations complain about the most were in place during our nation's longest period of sustained economic growth meaning that low unemployment, growing wages, and a prosperous middle class along with a prosperous upper class are all possible with high tax rates, increasing regulation, and strong unions. We have also forgotten who the real "job creators" in our economy are. Jobs are not created by businesses, businesses exist to create profits not jobs and not a sustainable economy. Jobs are created by demand. Hiring cuts into a company's profit margin by increasing their expenses and so the last thing a business wants to do is hire people. They only hire when forced to do so by a level of demand that is impossible to meet with their current work force. Where does this demand come from? Spending. Who does the majority of the spending in the US? The poor and the middle class. We may not be buying mansions and Ferraris but we buy enough Big Macs and cheap underwear from K-Mart to more than make up for it. We have to realize that we have the power, we hold the votes needed to make or break any politician's career and we hold the cash to make or break any company if we all work together. Good luck with that though. Our best option is to be a large enough and loud enough group get the politicians to take notice. To get the politicians to make the changes we want to save their own butts. The companies will have to follow along because they have no other choice, they are still, at least to some extent, bound by the laws of our nations. The real question is, what do we want?

Chanting "we are the 99%" is a good start, don't get me wrong but as I stood at the rally in front of Centennial Park I was confused. I saw a large group of people (good thing) that wanted change (another good thing) but as a group there was no consensus on what that change should be. What if we got the politician's attention so effectively that President Obama and John Boener went to the encampment in NYC and said "OK, we hear you and we realize that we have to listen to you. Just tell us what you want and we will make it happen." Would there be an answer? Would there be twenty answers, ten that the republicans supported and ten that the democrats supported meaning that they would cancel each other out and lead to no change in the long run? I don't want to end the Fed and I know there are others here who probably aren't real concerned about getting rid of corporate personhood. In all honesty doing either of these or both probably wouldn't have a lot of long term or even short term impact anyway. So while I think we have done a reasonable job of telling the hypothetical alien at the start of this thread what is wrong do we have any idea of what to do to make it right?

[tvwav]

The Problem: The Machiavellian, rapacious, supercilious Papio anubis have not yet been compelled by the miasma to devour sufficient toxoids to result in their annihilation.

The Solution? jejunus raro stomachus vulgaria temnit