Author Topic: End the fed  (Read 4080 times)

Offline FruitJelly

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End the fed
« on: October 13, 2011, 10:41:08 pm »
Adam – this is the 6th general assembly, and consensus thus far has said there are TWO THINGS we care about – corporate personhood and corporate money in politics. There has been some debate internal to ON and some personal attacks as far as where we stand on ‘end the fed’. That is more of a political stance, libertarian/republican. when you are speaking in a public realm, we should keep that out of this realm until the group consents to that being a priority and real issue. wants to make sure that we have consensus about we stand for two things – corporate money out of politics and corporate personhood, and consensus that we are not backing at the moment “end the fed”. We can deal with it internally and decide that if we come to a consensus about it. Ending the fed is not a unifying identification for ON or OWS. Proposal: show unified face, keep diviseness out of the public, and stick to the two unifying points. If we bring other unifying things in later, that’s fine, but right now ending the fed is not a unifying point. Tabled to become more concrete in another GA.

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Pulled from the GA Minutes 10/12.

I would like to know.. If I bring up END THE FED.  What will happen to me?  How will you react, and will you silence my voice?

[video=youtube;rQow0Fhua1A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQow0Fhua1A[/video]

Listen to those cheers!!  To claim "Ending the fed is not a unifying identification for ON or OWS" is Asinine!!

I would also like to point out a very relevant thread that pertains to this topic.  I've posted here in the War Room as well:
http://occupynashville.org/forums/showthread.php?207-BANKS!-With-FACTS-and-PICTURES!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 12:37:42 am by FruitJelly »
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Offline FruitJelly

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End the fed
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 05:23:16 pm »
bumpity bump bump.
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Offline FruitJelly

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End the fed
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2011, 05:28:36 pm »
No one has any rebuttals pertaining to this?  I mean it was a general consensus...  come on...  --a
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Offline Skank

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I don't want to end the Fed
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 11:13:20 am »
Sure, the Federal Reserve has LOTS of problems but we need a central bank.  The complexity involved in ending the Fed and starting from scratch are a little bit much for everyone to reach the same conclusion as to how to do that independently.  In short "End the Fed" sounds good but the real question is, what then?

Offline FruitJelly

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End the fed
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2011, 05:46:37 pm »
Quote from: Skank;1203
Sure, the Federal Reserve has LOTS of problems but we need a central bank.  The complexity involved in ending the Fed and starting from scratch are a little bit much for everyone to reach the same conclusion as to how to do that independently.  In short "End the Fed" sounds good but the real question is, what then?

No way.  We already have the means to do so.  JFK did it 3 months before he was assassinated.  It can easily be done.  The FED is a Private Corporation that is in charge of EVERYONE'S money.  How is that not a HORRIBLE Idea?  =]  The FED has more lobbyists in the government than ANYONE ELSE.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws." — Mayer Amsched Rothchild

"If the American people ever allow the banks to control issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." — Thomas Jefferson

I would also like to add.  I just got back from the Rally.  HUGE support for Ending the Fed!  :D  Countless photo-shoots and appraisals.  Thank you!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 09:47:00 pm by FruitJelly »
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Offline MmmBeefy

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End the fed
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2011, 10:38:55 pm »
I would gladly accept a central bank that was accountable to the public.  You know, like nearly every other country on the planet.  The entity in control of the money supply should not be anyone other than the public citizens of that money supply.  At the risk of sounding dismissive towards those that are being dismissive about this issue, please kindly remove your head from your arse and get educated and informed regarding the Federal Reserve and why it is truly our nations Public Enemy #1.

Offline FruitJelly

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End the fed
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2011, 11:44:16 pm »
Quote from: MmmBeefy;1226
I would gladly accept a central bank that was accountable to the public.  You know, like nearly every other country on the planet.  The entity in control of the money supply should not be anyone other than the public citizens of that money supply.  At the risk of sounding dismissive towards those that are being dismissive about this issue, please kindly remove your head from your arse and get educated and informed regarding the Federal Reserve and why it is truly our nations Public Enemy #1.

Exactly.  the FED is in control of the public sector.  They are not part of the government.  :)  I'm glad you agree.  :D
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Offline Citizen Zed

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End the fed
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 01:39:45 pm »
Seriously, the "End the Fed" business appears to be nothing more than a quixotic gesture. Most people who attempt to rationally ascertain the history and facts about the Federal Reserve do not buy the premises of the Libertarian "argument". All the Libertarian does is repeat premises and assumptions that are not shared.... or are not agreed to.  It is almost as if begging the question were a habit or nervous tick.

It's just not a rational atmosphere. Rather, though ostensibly secular, it has all the hallmarks of running into religious fundamentalists who assert that evolution is the root of all of our problems.  

You can catch a scent of this by the fact that the poster here cannot even step back and engage in a conversation whereby, even assuming there was agreement that the Federal Reserve was bad/evil per se, it would be a matter of establishing group consensus over pragmatic issues and priorities.  The Libertarian knows that ending the Federal Reserve would, in such a discourse, fail to be seen as a logical priority.  

What we have, rather, is something akin to fundamentalists berating people as they enter Churchill Downs during the Kentucky Derby. They can't even enter the in-field, that messy public torsion of analyzing and betting on the race. If they did that, their underlying premises (both about history and freedom) might get called into question. And since they cannot operate in that zone of argument (or actual philosophical inquiry), it's better just to rant from the get go.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 01:46:59 pm by Citizen Zed »
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Offline FruitJelly

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End the fed
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 02:55:00 pm »
Quote from: Citizen Zed;1264
The Libertarian knows that ending the Federal Reserve would, in such a discourse, fail to be seen as a logical priority.

That is why we are here to educate the Ignorant.  I shall endow upon you some FACTS!!  2008 was the start of the collapse of the global financial system.  This is not a free market financial system.  This is not capitalism.  This is basically a communist style, centrally planned, artificial fiat currency system, which is all based on DEBT.  So it is all going to collapse.  In 2008 it was on the verge of collapse, and all they did was paper it over which was the only option they really had, to keep counterfeiting money and to keep the people from thinking that it's not collapsing.  But, IT IS!  If you think restoring the entire global economy is not a priority in restoring America you can bet your ass when we lose the dollar as the trading block of the worlds economy, EVERYTHING we know in America will END!

Then, maybe everyone will understand what the Libertarians were saying.. But, unfortunately when that happens it will be too damn late.

Quote from: Citizen Zed;1264
Seriously, the "End the Fed" business appears to be nothing more than a quixotic gesture.

Sadly.. JFK did months before he was Assassinated.  Once assassinated all Green Backs were recalled and the Fiat currency was re-instated.
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Offline Citizen Zed

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End the fed
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2011, 04:04:30 pm »
Saying what you are doing is education isn't going to change its obvious character as proselytizing. Nope, not even the use of all-caps phrases. Clearly, your "facts" betray some desire to posit "pure capitalism" as opposed to the messy realities where ideologies are bent and twisted around the body of history, states and cultures.  It's like somebody in geometry class getting all worked up and saying "yes, really, pure triangles and squares do exist!", and its a shadowy conspiracy when the teacher says nowhere can such a thing be found and pointed to empirically.

Frankly, Libertarianism looks like an undead, zombie form of the nihilism that got us into this mess in the first place. The vast majority of people involved in OWS don't buy it.  But whenever you get the scent of political phenomena that defy the idiotic left/right continuum, here come the libertarian preachers, bouncing up and down on Oprah's sofa like Tom Cruise, to "educate" everyone unto the glorious "fact" that there's j u s t  o n l y one other way, namely theirs.

Education, with any form of scientific spirit, proceeds in the echo of Socrates' example in the Apology.  You know, where he concedes that the Oracle of Delphi may have been right when she said Socrates was the wisest, yet only insofar as where others claimed to know and did not, he claimed only that he did not know.  This is a spirit utterly foreign to Libertarian "education", which consists upon knowing everything and propounding it from a pulpit.  It explains too much and shows no faculty of doubt.... and no commitment to a process of moving toward truth via cultivated doubt and dialogue.  

Most people involved in OWS have a vague premonition, at the very least, that no standard ideological system dug up from the past is going to have much power now, nowadays in a complex world of problems that outstrip past imagination. Imagine trying to explain everything about 2011 even to someone in the 80s.  That's not to say we can't look back nor to deny that earlier forms of thought may yet prove valuable.... but nothing like that will have power as already fully cooked and determinate.  The challenge of Reason is before us in this crucible; and presently the Libertarian "contribution" appears to be nothing but noise pumping to the beat of smoke and mirror conspiracy theory magic.

You mentioned debt as if it too were ipso facto evil. Graeber has a book on the topic, I think it's called Debt: The First 5000 Years. It may not have all the answers but it certainly sounds interesting. I'm not totally sure of the thesis there, but from what I've heard it sounds like debt is as central to the very existence of homo sapiens as religion and art.   ... 'course that's not to say that religion, with one or two of its infinite faces, can't try to cut off it's own body parts.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 04:44:34 pm by Citizen Zed »
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Offline AvgJane2

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End the fed
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 02:33:47 am »
Citizen Zed: LOVE your posts :-)

Offline MmmBeefy

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End the fed
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 09:42:25 am »
Citizen Zed:  So far, all I've seen from you is intelligent-sounding rhetoric intended to shoot the messenger, rather than focus on the quality (or lack thereof) of the message.  Do you give no weight whatsoever to the idea that the Federal Reserve at the very least is in serious need of reform?  If you do not, I'm surprised that you would be a supporter of the Occupy movement, because the behavior of the Federal Reserve, at several points in recent history, has been widely criticized by respected members of every political stripe for being a primary player in the collapse of our economy.  Perhaps a little intellectual honesty is in order here, unless you prefer continuing to more precisely define words that are already well understood, and attempt to impress us with Latin.

---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 AM ----------

I'll even suggest a topic:  The tenure of one Alan Greenspan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Greenspan#Criticism

I honestly can't understand how anyone with a straight face could support the actions of this man (who, by the way, had the full support of the Federal Reserve members and member banks) during his tenure, but Citizen Zed (or anyone else), please feel free to attempt to justify this.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 09:36:11 am by MmmBeefy »

Offline FruitJelly

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End the fed
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 02:37:39 pm »
Excellent post Beefy.  I would also like to back you up with FACTS..  :D

http://occupynashville.org/forums/showthread.php?207

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws.
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Offline NickP

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End the fed
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 03:00:34 pm »
While the Fed may and probably is a problem I don't see how it should be the primary concern, at least to me.  

The immediate problem in my opinion is wealth's direct influence on politics a.k.a. legalized bribery in the form of campaign finance and lobbyists.  I don't see how altering the Fed will alter the general plutocratic control of the political establishment.  Won't the rich just move their money to gold and silver and still generally control money supply via precious metal supply?  

Altering the rules for incorporation, taxation, media ownership/management and campaign finance would do far more in the slow slog for greater democracy than eliminating the Fed.
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Offline FruitJelly

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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 03:12:54 pm »
Quote from: NickP;1321
While the Fed may and probably is a problem I don't see how it should be the primary concern, at least to me.  

The immediate problem in my opinion is wealth's direct influence on politics a.k.a. legalized bribery in the form of campaign finance and lobbyists.  I don't see how altering the Fed will alter the general plutocratic control of the political establishment.  Won't the rich just move their money to gold and silver and still generally control money supply via precious metal supply?  

Altering the rules for incorporation, taxation, media ownership/management and campaign finance would do far more in the slow slog for greater democracy than eliminating the Fed.

I think you have this opinion merely because you are thinking in the Now.  If you are to think just 1 or 2 years in the future.. when our monetary system collapses, and all that money that has controlled government is worthless toilet paper.  I think if you read over the facts that the banks are creating money out of thin air and stockpiling government bonds you will see the FED as being the problem.  I would also like to point out that you are mentioning wealth's direct influence on politics.  The LARGEST Lobbyists and contributors to that influence are the banks.

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2010/05/21/2670/five-lobbyists-each-member-congress-financial-reforms

To answer the question about the gold and silver that the rich will own.  Yes, but they are allowed to do so.  That is the advantage of a Free Market.  There is opportunity to become rich.  Its the fact that there is a Limited Supply of gold and silver that regulates its value.  You cant print more gold and silver.  :D

I would also like your opinion as to if you know who the FED is..?  And if you realize they are a Private Business and not controlled by our Government.  They issue a Fiat Currency and make a KILLING in profits from Interest.  They are using us to make their money.  (Federal tax on every check you make is not going to anything FEDERAL, it is going to the Federal Reserve to pay back what our government has been borrowing from them.  To pay back interest on a Fiat Currency.)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 03:23:38 pm by FruitJelly »
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