Messages

1

IT/IS Proposals Passed/Rejected / Re: 48 Hour Proposal Review

« on: January 21, 2012, 12:14:11 pm »

Thank you OV3, John and Whisper for your efforts to save Occupy from itself.  And also for devining a plan for participation by those unable to be at the Plaza.  And also for maintaining the ideals of our movement.  We can not fight corruption if we are not squeeky clean ourselves.  If we allow "end justifies the means" thinking, we become the Donald Rumsfelt's. 

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THE 99% PUBLIC PROPOSALS / Re: Proposal Idea: Movement Rules of Order (Addendum to Code of Conduct)

« on: January 21, 2012, 12:51:59 am »

Thanks for taking a hard look and unloading your ideas.  Most of us don't want to hear it, but have to agree.

8)Those that do not participate in the encampment may not decide its fate.

About 80 years ago, Chesty Puller, two time Medal of Honor recipient, proposed that before the country declared war there should be a referendum.  The only people that could vote in the referendum were those eligible to be drafted.  Your same idea I believe.

Only those actively occupying and those willing to be arrested should have a say on the future of the encampment.

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IT/IS Proposals Passed/Rejected / Re: 48 Hour Proposal Review

« on: January 21, 2012, 12:12:45 am »

I like your proposal.   Don't think it will pass GA.  Even if it does, it may not solve the problem.

This idea assumes Working Groups formulate proposals for review by GA.  This is the original idea, but the Anarchist's in Direct Action refuse to abide.     
 
Direct Action does not bring their actions to GA for approval.  They don't even get consensus in their working group meetings for actions. They believe in "free association" rather than consensus.  They depend on secrecy to push their social agenda rather than open discussion and consensus of all Occupy as you suggest.

Direct Action members are the heart of Occupy.  As individuals I love and respect every one.  And their social agendas are worthy.  But there is only one goal that units all of Occupy - removing corruption from politics.  Since there is 80% public support for this goal, the public would rally around Occupy if it stayed on message.  The Legislature would be afraid to pass laws to kick Occupy off the Plaza.

4

War Room / Re: Why the Occupy Movement takes no positions on issues....

« on: January 08, 2012, 01:10:00 pm »

wiseoldman - the 1% come from the same gene pool as you.  As you pointed out, the only difference between you and them is the circumstances of birth. 

As much as we want to deny it in ourselves, selfishness is a part of the human condition for all of us.  Saying there is class struggle is a simple recognition of reality.  It will always be with us because of the human condition. Assigning fault to a class for a trait of all humanity is nonsensical

With this human condition in mind, we should be seeking a system of government that will channel this trait to productive rather than destructive outcomes.

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War Room / Re: Why the Occupy Movement takes no positions on issues....

« on: January 01, 2012, 06:48:40 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law#Free_association

"Since individuals require the assistance of groups to self-actualize, individuals have a strong self-interest in the good of the community to which they belong. It follows that (freely associating) collectives of individuals working for mutual improvement and mutual goals must form the basis of any anarchist society."

"A voluntary association is a group of individuals who enter into an agreement as volunteers to form a body (or organization) to accomplish a purpose."

"Whatever rules are set in place must be freely agreed to by the entirety of the community that is to be governed by them in a setting free from coercion or intimidation. Such freely given consent constitutes a social contract."

"Free association also implies the right of individuals to form those exact social contracts. This freedom to not associate means if the terms of a social contract become unacceptable to an individual member or sub-group(s) within a society, the discontented have the right to secede from the contract."

Why do I have to go to anarchist websites to find definitions of terms used on this website?  Why do Anarchists (like religious fundamentalists) cherry-pick from Anarchist Law to support their preconceived notions?  Why can't the Anarchists subordinate their nebulous theoretical concepts for a greater good?  For the purpose of providing sharp focus to the issue, I'll use Anarchist terms to define the alternative to the "umbrella" concept. 

Millions of INDIVIDUALS believe our current political system is inherently corrupt.  Since these individuals require the assistance of groups to SELF-ACTULIZE, they welcome the opportunity to FREELY ASSOCIATE in a VOLUNTARY ASSOCATION and form a SOCIAL CONTRACT to achieve such MUTUAL GOALS as overturning Citizen's United.  Since this is the stated Goal of Occupy, it follows that the PURPOSE of Occupy is to form a SOCIETY for these individuals and facilitate their activities.  Success of this concept would change history.

The Umbrella concept is a loose federation of pre-existing groups. The social contract between these groups is to mutually support each other, no matter. The groups get better recognition if their actions are successful and anonymity under the Occupy banner if they fail.  The individuals not in one of these groups do not have a contract with anybody.  The elaborate consensus process is show.  The Occupy movement and individuals have no specific purpose but to be used.  If carried forward, Occupy continues to lose support because it stands for everything, and nothing.
 

6

War Room / Re: Should we improve our process?

« on: January 01, 2012, 12:00:05 pm »

http://www.nycga.net/groups/tech/forum/topic/anyone-interested-in-working-on-a-live-virtual-general-assembly-software-i-am/

FYI

7

War Room / Should we improve our process?

« on: December 29, 2011, 06:00:10 pm »

I wonder how much of the "business" of Occupy could be moved on-line?  The consensus model we use in GA now is intended for stable groups that are always present in person.  We really don't have that. It's hard to justify our decisions as consensus since it is only consensus of those physically present.  If we could keep the essentials of the present process but move it on-line, it could be a true consensus.  Our current Working Groups also might not be necessary since everybody could participate in every aspect of Occupy.  By using Working Groups, we are closer to a representative democracy than the direct democracy we espouse.

I'm sure there would be +'s and -'s for evolving our process on-line.  But Occupiers are superb at thinking outside the box so I think we can do it if we agree there is an overall advantage.  Anyone else have thoughts along these lines?

8

War Room / Re: Why the Occupy Movement takes no positions on issues....

« on: December 29, 2011, 05:38:30 pm »

Thank you OldMan for defining this "umbrella" version of Occupy.  I think it is shared by roughly half of Occupy Nashville (from my discussions with individuals) however it is by no means a consensus.

The other version of Occupy, almost the exact opposite, is that we should take positions and act based on our group consensus.  Under this version, supporting something we did not believe in would be immoral.

Occupy Nashville will have to get past this duel view of Occupy or it will remain as ineffective as it is now.  The two versions of Occupy are not compatible.  Each version cancels out the other; therefore we take no actions and become irrelevant.

I think there are caucuses trying to address this problem.  Please work fast or it will not matter anymore.

9

Occupy Nashville Chat / Re: Homeless and Occupying

« on: December 23, 2011, 10:33:25 pm »

Well done Dixie.  Should be on the front page of the Tennessean.

10

General Discussion / Re: proposal

« on: December 23, 2011, 10:09:47 pm »

Thank you Creature and caucus for your thoughtful proposal.  I also appreciate your delaying consensus until a later date.  I plan to bring a pot of chili about noon tomorrow and stay for GA, but I'm sure there are others with vital interest in this proposal that would not be able to attend.

I also like the idea of posting proposals on-line before they are presented for consensus.  This allows questions and concerns to be worked out before presentation at GA.  Also this allows time for friendly amendments to be proposed and considered by your caucus without the caucus being put on the spot in GA.  I can see this process resulting in better proposals and better decisions.  Second also; it allows Occupiers that cannot regularly attend Working Group Meetings or GA because of work schedule or distance (many staunch Occupiers live over an hour away) to be a part of decision making.

If we allow ourselves to extrapolate on this idea I wonder how much of the "business" of Occupy could be moved on-line?  The consensus model we use in GA now is intended for stable groups that are always present in person.  We really don't have that. It's hard to justify our decisions as consensus since it is only consensus of those physically present.  If we could keep the essentials of the present process but move it on-line, it could be a true consensus.  Our current Working Groups also might not be necessary since everybody could participate in every aspect of Occupy.  By using Working Groups, we are closer to a representative democracy than the direct democracy we espouse.

I'm sure there would be +'s and -'s for evolving our process on-line.  But Occupiers are superb at thinking outside the box so I think we can do it if we agree there is an overall advantage.  Anyone else have thoughts along these lines?

I'm not proposing that we go completely on-line and give up the Plaza.  Since Nashville is one of the few encampments still standing, we owe it to the movement to persevere.  The court agreed with our right to protest.  Nashville is the symbol, not only to the rest of Occupy, but to the nation that 1st amendment rights can be successfully defended.  If the Governor or Legislature wants to fight that battle again, we should be there waiting.

That being said, we should realize we are at a Valley Forge moment.  Some can continue to physically occupy the Plaza.  Others (because of health, family, or jobs) cannot.  Those occupying the Plaza are our front line troops, risking their health and safety.  They deserve our praise and support.  And by support, I mean more than a pat on the back. Occupiers not camped on the Plaza should share in the sacrifice by providing for them as best we can.  There are 14 - 16 full time Occupy campers now.  I want to believe there are 50 + staunch Occupiers willing to do whatever it takes to see them through the winter.  Can we not set up an Adoption Agency Working Group to match campers with those wanting to provide support?  The supporters would feel more solidarity with the campers than they do now.

I've rambled on longer than planned, but Creature has inspired me to think more positively about the prospects of ON than I have in recent weeks.

11

Introductions / Hi I'm Bill1 (old guy with felt hat)

« on: November 21, 2011, 12:02:50 am »

I claim Bill1 cause every other guy at the Plaza is named Bill.

I wandered into the Plaza about three weeks back to see what the fuss was about.  Hung around about three days talking to folks.  Thought I was a NARC.  These folks take themselves serious, I says to myself. So one night, sitting with my new buds, singing songs, along comes these black shirts who haul me to jail.  Really hurt my feelings.  Somethings wrong here, I says to myself, better hang with this bunch and sort it all out.

Back in the 60's had a choice; burn my draft card or shave my head and join the war.  Pops was a WW11 vet so I figured I'd throw in with the Marines and kick butt.  But right beats might.  Wanted to feel proud but felt dirty.  Felt dirty ever since.  Well it's choice time again and I'm smarter, I figure, and want to be on the winning side for a change.  Want to feel clean.

Who am I?  Lets see.  I'm an engineer by trade.  Tend to think methodical.  Emotional dud according to the wife.  Dogs and babies are drawn to me, why I don't know.  High marks on 'plays well with others'.  Find people are more interesting than things, which is odd for an engineer.

What I want?  Dozens of effects but the same root cause: corporate money in politics.  Occupy is moving from a protest to a movement.  Protesting the effects now, but in the end the movement must kill the root cause.  Want to help form the movement and start the battle.

12

Introductions / Re: I am Tim, I am a veteran.

« on: November 20, 2011, 05:46:26 pm »

Thanks for your service Tim.  I am a vet also but from a different war.  I think you will find that ON is full of patriots fighting for thier country.  The foe this time are "enemies domestic".  We have a Veteran's Working Group that could use your help.